From: orlandi@rmcisadu.let.uniroma1.it
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:16:36 +0200 (CEST)

Dear colleagues, here is a matter for which I would like
to have opinions as far as possible. Please, read what follows
with the web annexes mentioned, and write what you think.

[IMPORTANT NOTE: please use . If you simply type
R(eply) to this message, your message will go to ME, and
not to formhum]

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Lou Burnard wrote:

Please note that the information about Oxford in the current draft is
very misleading. Please refer to our website at
http://www.hcu.ox.ac.uk/ for evidence that we are not a "lost
occasion". It is quite wrong to suggest that the University does not
support our work -- on the contrary, it has just agreed to fund a
further 3 members of staff for the next two years!

Tito Orlandi wrote:

As for the "lost occasion", of course I mean ONLY in the sense
(as it is written in my contribution):
 
> that some universities, which are fully equipped with important
> facilities and personnel to produce computer applications in the
> humanities, have failed to recognize one or more disciplines forming
> an individual sector in the Faculty.

And indeed, as I went again through the web page mentioned by
you, I did not find the indication of the recognition of an
"individual sector" i.e. curriculum, in Hum.Comp. -- If you
might point to me some more explicit statement than I found,
I shall be of course the happiest of men and I shall change
my text accordingly.

Lou wrote:

I do not understand what you mean by "individual sector". In fact, I
don't understand the sentence you quote at all! Are you saying only
that the HCU is not located within one of the academic departments?
Since it is intended to provide support for and collaborate with *all*
of the humanities departments, this is hardly surprising! But we are
answerable to a committee on which all of the academic departments are
represented, and we work very closely with them (e.g. in integrating
training modules into their courses, and in developing research
projects jointly with them). If so, then I fear we will have to disagree
about the implication that the only meaningful place for humanities
computing support to be located is within a single academic
department.

You might also like to read our strategy document, currently at 
http://www.hcu.ox.ac.uk/strategy.html

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:50:00 +0200
From: Manfred Thaller 

Well,
I have a long tradition of disagreeing with Lou about anything more
controversila than the direction of the Earth's rotation, so you will
not be very surprised if I think Tito is right;
however, I'd like to keep two things apart.

1) We are talking (and if that is not explicit enough, that even close
outsiders as Lou do not recognise it, it should be said stronger) about
teaching of Humanities Computing as leading to degrees. Cologne, e.g.,
provides a regular MA in "Informationsverarbeitung", with two
specialisation, linguistic and historical. Bergen provides an MA in
"Historisk  Informatikk" and two different BA equivalents ("Humanistisk
Informatikk" and "Historisk Informatikk"). Oxford does not really offer
an MA, as we know, but for all I know, there is no such thing as a well
defined BA which explicitly claims to train a Humanities scholar, who
bases his claims for professional recognition on an integrated and
REQUIRED training in Computing, IT or whatsoever current fashion likes
to call it.

Unless there is a dedicated degree in Oxford, which requires in a
non-voluntary way, that students acquire IT-knowledge in at least the
same degree, as they acquire knowledge in one or more Humanities
disciplines, Tito is in my opinion simply right in the perspective of
"the book". (And I, for one, am VERY much in agreement with that
perspective, as I see it as a major political goal, to get formal
degrees established. Indeed, if we would change that emphasis, we would
need a totally new round of very fundamental discussion.)

If we are wrong and there is a way officially to study "Humanities
Computing" in Oxford, I am immediately in celebratory mood, would like
to know the details for usage in university politics and apologise.


2) The other question is, whether anything in the formulation reads
offensive for Oxford eyes. However: Lou, are you sure, that is not
exactly what you want to shake in front of the eyes of University
politicians?

Best, Manfred

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Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:54:26 +0100 (BST)
From: Lou Burnard 

On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, Manfred Thaller wrote:

|I have a long tradition of disagreeing with Lou about anything more
|controversila than the direction of the Earth's rotation, so you will

Come on Manfred, you know perfectly well that the earth does not
rotate!  The rest of the universe rotates, and the earth is completely
static -- obviously, or the Australians would all fall off.

|
|1) We are talking (and if that is not explicit enough, that even close
|outsiders as Lou do not recognise it, it should be said stronger) about
|teaching of Humanities Computing as leading to degrees.


More seriously, I must say that it wasn't clear to me from Tito's
account that this was the point he wished to make. I suppose it's
because we have developed a very different view of the role of "what
we do" within the academic disciplines and thus we have a different
perspective on what it means. Our policy is to integrate the specific
skills associated with humanities computing into the teaching of
humanities subjects, not to make them into a distinct
discipline. Manfred correctly says that this is a subject on which
opinions are divided. I had merely misunderstood the purpose of this
exercise as being to describe the situation, not to endorse one state
of affairs to the exclusion of any others. But since that is the case,
I apologise for wasting your time. Clearly, my university and its
practices have nothing further to contribute to the discussion, since
ideological positions have been taken up and our policies fall outside
them.


|If we are wrong and there is a way officially to study "Humanities
|Computing" in Oxford, I am immediately in celebratory mood, would like
|to know the details for usage in university politics and apologise.

There are lots of ways of officially studying all sorts of things at
Oxford. You dont have to be registered on a course called "Humanities
Computing" to study it.

|2) The other question is, whether anything in the formulation reads
|offensive for Oxford eyes. However: Lou, are you sure, that is not
|exactly what you want to shake in front of the eyes of University
|politicians?
	
Oxford courses are not changed so readily...

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Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:25:03 +0100 (BST)
From: Stuart Lee 

Lou,

If the argument continues you might add that as of this year nearly all
humanities postgraduates will be doing a course in computing research
skills, and in many cases this will be a compulsory part of their course.
It also will be compulsory for some undergraduates (Archaeology,
Anthropology, etc.). The sessions are meant as introductions with a stream
of voluntary course offered thereafter.

You may also point out that our definition of humanities computing (i.e.
including Music, Archaeology, Anthropology) is somewhat broader than
ACO*HUM's (despite comments made at the Granada meeting). You may also
point out that in Granada the 'mainland' Europeans made a big point about
the need to recognise different structures. They should therefore accept
that Oxford (like Cambridge) works on a collegiate system which
structures its courses differently thus making it (at the moment)
difficult to marry on a Humanities Computing degree or joint degree, and
also enforcing the need for a centralised support structure like the HCU
(i.e. not in a faculty or department). That does not mean, however, that
humanities computing courses are not available, nor that they are not (in
some cases) compulsory components of degrees (History have been teaching
computational methods for years). In fact, compared with most Universities
in the UK we offer far more courses and certainly, with reference to our
postgraduates, they come out with far better training in humanities
computing methods; Kings and Glasgow being the obvious exceptions.

Stuart